Lee'Mon: So, Q3A v1.25: are you troubled, or thankful?
From: D'reg Chicken
Subject: the guantlet
hi Lee'Mon and Spyke,
Listen... this is the FEEDBACK for the guantlet, about how the physics were changed in Q3A point release 1.25 . In my oppinion the physics are something that players get used to, and then if u change those physics, even a little bit, the gameplay becomes completely different, in changes the way players have to play. Demi-Gods, well most of them wouldn't really care for the changes, because, well, they're demi-gods, they addapt pretty quickly to new surroundings. But most people arn't demi-gods, they're just normal people, who like to have fun, who have addapted to their own style of play. who have addapted to the physics in 1.17. If u change the physics, it's like saying, "your controls are all wrong, here have a set of new ones", and then expect them to be really good straight away!I know that most people won't have any trouble addapting... but the "splash DMG" through floors, woz pretty realistic. and it added a sort of challenge to the people on high ground. It didn't just let them RULE the level easily. id waited to long to change the physics... 1 year is a long time for a game. If they wanted to make a game with the "right" physics, they should'ev thought about it when they were making it.
I understand wot Lee'Mon is saying, but i'd have to be on Spykes side. he's right, u can't just change the physics of a game and then expect everything to b alright!
Lee'Mon: I still maintain my opinion. Sure, ten months is pretty bad, but Q3A is going to be around for a LONG time... The changes needed to be made. Would you prefer these changes come now, or two, even three years later?
Demonwench: I say this: who made the game? id did. So, it's THEIR game. They made it, they can change it anyway they bloody well please. And, hey hey hey, they did change it. I'm betting that their not going to change it back. They tweaked this baby so y'all can just relearn yer strategies!
It all comes down to learning curve vs depth. Dodgey physics is fantastic for opening up new dimensions of movement for the player. After all, half the game is about being able to move around proficiently. As far as that is concerned everything's cool in quake land.
But there's a long standing game ruining factor in game design called "UnderBalance" - a better player getting more advantages simply because they are doing better and/or have played the game for longer... features like CS's rule of giving winners extra money is just one example. The megahealth on dm13 is another. While being able to jump huge ravines is fine and dandy, giving an actual ingame reward for doing the stuff is just not right - the fact that the player is utilizing their better rehearsed movement coreography should be an ample advantage over their less experianced nemesis. As I said before, the game is 50% movement, 50% shooting... item running/domination/denile is a game feature that we should really try to look past if we're talking about professional gaming. Rewarding palyers with such monsterous power ups as the mega health or red armour is plain wrong, creating unfairness, and making map routes redundant.
I have no fixed point of view on the splash changes. As I've said before, ever getting an advantage over another player ain't just. Having the high ground STILL gives you an advantage, but johnny floor hugger gets his own advantage to balance up. To tell the truth, there is no way to make an absolutely perfectly balanced game for such a wide variety of game players... many will have substandard interfaces or laggy modems. But is there any point in actively making a game unfair?
I find it funny that the people who are complaining about the exploits being fixed are the people who should REALLY be begging for fairer gameplay. Fun is subjective, but fairness and balance are still tangable tweakable factors that can be tuned to perfection. If people like a fair game, they like a fair game. If they WANT imbalance, they should really go back to CS.
Lee'Mon: As always, PainBerry offers his insightful commentary. I'd comment on it, but as usual, PainBerry gives the honorable (and largely correct) middle ground.
Demonwench: So...yer for the changes? He's talkin' balances so I'm thinkin' he is. Cool.
Subject: Gauntlet: 1.25 or not
Puhleeze...Lee'Mon CAN'T be serious...Spyke is so CLEARLY right on this issue
that it boggles the mind that anyone who plays Q3 on a regular basis can think
that changing the basic gameplay after nearly a YEAR is a good idea. From what
I understand id has reinserted the 125 Hz sampling into the physics, but is
still taking the splash through floors out and leaving the 100 health timing
at 2 minutes. One out of 3 isn't good...I suppose we WILL have to live with it,
but it seems that id is stepping on the toes of the very community that has
made them. After such an amount of time and such events as the various CPL
tournaments around the world, changing things that alter the basic gameplay on
the only decent maps that they included with the game seems like a statement
similar to William Shatner on SNL to the trekkies..."Get a life!" They seem
dismayed that people other than them can be making money off this game...so
they alter it...why? Now (in all likelyhood) maps for tourneys will have to
be rethought (or realtered ala the TMP pak) and strategies revised and to what
purpose? Bah...my rant is done. I disagree with the choices id made...
Lee'Mon: You know, it's funny. I, all my friends, most everyone at PQ, most of my teammates at WireHead Studios... nearly everyone whose opinion I hold dear either agrees with the 1.25 changes or has become resigned to live with them. As far as I can tell, the only people severly complaining are the ones that severely complain EVERY time a change is made. The people who whine every time Counter-Strike's weapons change, or the latest spawn-room flooding exploit in Team Fortress Classic is removed. Come on, people... in the time you've spent complaining in #ban_125, you could have adapted to the physics and moved on. Does anyone see what I'm getting at?
Demonwench: Okay, peoples...you CAN'T change the game back! Live and enjoy the way Q3 is now or stop playing and move on! You don't have to keep complaining about this, you can actually do something about it! Leave!
Subject: The Gauntlet
I don't feel that much hatred toward ID Software for taking away shooting through floors. I'll admit that many people including myself use the bug as much as we can but the changes will be adapted to eventually. The fact of the matter is that ID Software made the game and intended for floors not to be shot through and quake III will now have a whole new edge to it's gameplay with the changes. People will have to actually go out of their way, use a little more accuracy, and/or think a lot more about how they're gonna get the guy on the top level of Q3TOURNEY4 now.
All in all I think that complaints about such little changes are just the classic way the community whines when a change is made. I mean God, how many times did the old Ultima Online players complain because of the hundreds of times Origin modified the game in one way or another?
Anyway, thats about all I have to say about that.
Lee'Mon: YES! Someone DOES get it! Praise the code monkey gods!
Demonwench: Hehehehe. I like him. He makes sense. You see me online, you tell me who you are and I'll give ya p1mpsmack special. ;-)
Subject: 1.25 vs. 1.17
I've read the last gauntlet and one question popped up all the time: has
the quake community become a bunch of whiners? Don't get me wrong, its
simply great that a game-producing company spends so much time listening
to the opinion of the players and it's just as good that the players are
actually using this ability but I think things are getting way out of
Let me make one thing clear: I totally agree with Lee'Mon's side of the
story. The things that are fixed in 1.25 were bugs, exploits, things
waiting to be fixed! To me that is very clear, but even if it wasn't:
it's id's game. If they feel they need to fix it, so be it.
There's however one thing I feel that should've been different and that
is the looong time it took id to recognize and fix these issues. It's
been about a year since Q3A came out and since that moment players have
got used to the, although flawed, gameplay. That's why I can understand
why, especially professional players, feel very strong about this issue.
Still, it's id's game and it's pretty obvious these bugs simply need to
For instance, the 'shoot-through-floors' bug is a very obvious flaw. I
don't really care if people exploit this bug, but no one can say
honestly they didn't know it was a bug. I've always suspected it but
when my friend Sithlord began making his 'Stronghold Opposition for Q3A'
map we both knew for sure. We were unable to stop people shooting
through the ramp which goes up to the flagroom and we were pretty
annoyed by this.
All I can say is that I feel these fixes didn't came a moment to soon.
Even worse: they came much too late. If id had chosen to fix these bugs
earlier in the life of Q3A, things wouldn't be so hectic as they are
now. More importantly, players wouldn't have had the time to get used to
these flaws and everything would've passed without much off a hickup.
Still, it has not gone that way and I really think the community has to
accept these fixes and simply go on with other, more useful, activities
than bickering about such obvious issues.
Just my 2-cents...,
Lee'Mon: See? Now, is my opinion so hard to believe?
Demonwench: Lotta people are seeing the light! There is hope (albeit a small one) for the human race! Woop!
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